Omega Unit Villians: FallenStar - Posts & Discussion

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Re: Omega Unit Villians: FallenStar - Posts & Discussion

Postby FirstBorn » February 10th, 2012, 6:49 pm

Wow... first off- I get distracted for a couple days and I come back to more comments than I usually get in a month! <<warms my sub-cockles>>

Now- I promise I'm going to TRY and address the comments w/o turning this response into a novel... remember: I said *TRY*.

MacroLass wrote:I actually AGREE with your point. There should be some kind of effort exerted and/or resistance to overcome when controlling someone to make it a more worthwhile achievement. But often the sad truth is that that is a luxury you just can't afford within the confines of a comic.


-- There are definately some very different limitations on the style of storytelling that goes on here. And MacroLass has done a good job of encapsulating one of those challenges. It is a sign of a mature and skilled storyteller to be able to overcome those limitations w/o breaking the paradigm. Obviously I am not among that number- at least not yet.

Tecknophyle wrote: Halloween Havoc 3 shows the end result of a fight, so you have three heroines obviously doing something other than being victims, even if you don't see all of it. There's references to other characters being off to do things, or reports of them doing things that are just background events, often not even seen, but they lend to the verisimilitude that these characters do something other than wait around passively for the next time someone zaps them.


-- Here's the thing about this one- and I do recall the discussion related to this. As well as my own little "Looks like they heard some of the comments there" reaction to the story above. Here's the thing though... McComix is a site that spun off of Hipcomix. Hip was all about heroines in distress (bondage/control) and the MC theme was a natural spin off from that. We just got to big for our britches and started moving so far beyond the "bound heroine" theme that we grew into our own site. ((I'm paraphrasing history here since I was not an artist involved here @ the time but I was an active subscriber so that was my impression of the events))

My point in all that exposition? Artists write for their own audience but they also write what they're interested in... and the major theme here is not "Heroines being Heroines"- its heroines being MC'd. Now- granted- we, as artists may kinda beat a similar theme to death with the heroines being rather slow learners and there as little more than props for the villains schemes. I can totally understand the lack of interest in that plot over time. It tends to devalue the heroines from the Titular Character (pun intended) to more of a prop for the MC.

As an example of the alternative to this there was another story over at Hip that I followed: Platinum Earth. Some of the early chapters of that story had little to no MC in them at all. Instead they focused on character development so that later when we would see those characters under duress and control it would make the fall all the sweeter. Problem was that it took a REALLY LONG TIME to get to the fall and until the story had fleshed out to a much greater degree I kinda lost interest in it. I'll admit that once he had a year or so under the belt I went back and appreciated those earlier chapters a lot more.

Thing is, for me- I just don't know that I have the "fan base" to survive that long of a wait. Granted, neither did Sir Willoughby @ the time. So I hope you'll forgive some of my "early storytelling mistakes" during my adjustment here.

Don't worry though- I do hear the comments and I am slowly assimilating them into (hopefully) making me better @ storytelling in this format.

--- And last, but certainly not least:

Adon wrote:I have to say I was a little disappointed with this chapter. It's not that she was turned -- the title of the story pretty much spells it out -- it's that she put up little to no resistance at all. I would have thought someone who was as pure of heart as her would have struggled fiercely, but she was corrupted so quickly that it was a case of blink and you miss it.


-- First off let me do this <<removes *LURKER* sticker - replaces with "Hi, my name is..." sticker>> Welcome to the club!! I'm honored to have been the final lure to bring you out of the darkness.

Now, to deal with your objection specifically. I do what I do to elicit a response, and it would seem I have done so for you. That makes me happy. Not exactly the response I was hoping for, but let me explain a bit of my motivation here.

I totally get (see above) why you might have been disappointed in DayStar falling so easily. And I appreciate MacroLass coming to my defense. But here's my deal regarding DayStar. Wait for it...

I need her to be a strong willed but a-typical villain for my storyline.

That's it. I have a job for her to do that she couldn't have done as the heroine she was. Granted, I gave you just enough of a taste to draw you in and then ripped the rug out from under you. Yes. Granted, she has a lot of characteristics that made her very similar in nature to other hero's that you might be familiar with. This was also intentional. I intend to have some fun with DayStar once her transformation is complete- although it will likely take me a while to get there. So, for story purposes she needed to fall.

I will grant that perhaps she could have taken a bit longer to do so. But if you'll forgive a bit of a "behind the curtain" look I think I can explain that as well.

****** Warning ****** Spoilers Ahead ******* Warning *******

Characters like DayStar, and their alter ego's in other comic incarnations, are often virtually invincible. This leads to a certain outlook on life that could be called overconfidence in some, genuine competence in others. The point is that that ultimate core sense of self comes in no small part from that invincibility. But what happens when that invincibility is suddenly, and surprisingly removed. I recall a Wonder Woman comic where Superman is turned into little more than a dog on a leash (literally) with just a phrase from Zatana. Unfortunately it doesn't last but a page or two... such a waste.

In this story, DayStar wakes in a strange location with all of her usual boastfulness but finds herself suddenly unable to back it up. She has totally lost her footing. Normally she would be able to fight her way out of anything. Overcome anything. Whatever it was she was drinking wouldn't have effected her and once she got her wits about her she would have been back to kicking ***. But in THAT place the Master's will literally set the rules. She was naked, in more ways than one. She fell victim to a subtle trick, a little white lie, and didn't know what she was agreeing to. In that way she was only mortal, and no more powerful than any of us- perhaps even less so because she had ample reason to doubt herself when you or I might have been more in control of our own self-image (we have no super powers to lose).

This is the cause of DayStar's rather fast demise. If she had some time to prepare she would have done much better- but given the situation she did the best she could. Which as it turns out vs. that type of evil... wasn't much.

******** END POTENTIAL SPOILER *********

And, in her defense, recall that the Master did make a few comments in surprise at the fact that she woke up at all.

Beyond that, I guess I just have to ask that you trust where I intend to take the character, and hope that you enjoy the ride.

Thanks again for the comments! Keep em coming, as long as you don't mind reading my answers.... remember, I did say I'd *TRY* to keep it short.

/wink
~
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Re: Omega Unit Villians: FallenStar - Posts & Discussion

Postby Tecknophyle » February 11th, 2012, 1:43 am

FirstBorn wrote:
As an example of the alternative to this there was another story over at Hip that I followed: Platinum Earth. Some of the early chapters of that story had little to no MC in them at all. Instead they focused on character development so that later when we would see those characters under duress and control it would make the fall all the sweeter. Problem was that it took a REALLY LONG TIME to get to the fall and until the story had fleshed out to a much greater degree I kinda lost interest in it. I'll admit that once he had a year or so under the belt I went back and appreciated those earlier chapters a lot more.


Just for giggles, I looked at Platinum Earth. There were 44 "issues".

The first one, which was introductory, had no explicit MC. The second, giving the backstories of Ortega's Marionettes, was all MC.
Issues 3-5: Heroines being MC'd form the main plot.
Issues 6-7: Mc'ing of a female ninja
Issues 8-9: No mind control
Issues 10-13: Mind control/corruption due to the alien hive
Issues 14-15: Chinese general using mind control on heroines/female subordinate
Issues 16: Back to the MC'ing at the Hive
Issue 17-18: Back to MC'ing in China
Issue 19-21: The Zombie slave MC'ing
Issue 22-23: Ultimo MC'ing his new sidekicks.
Issue 24: Ultimo's sidekicks MC'ing heroines
Issue 25: No MC
Issue 26: Back to the MC at the Hive
Issue 27: No MC
Issue 28: MC dream sequence by Snowflake
Issue 29-40: The majority of the Metrobay crossover. We got cybernetic MC'ing, alien symbiotic MC'ing, corruption...
Issue 41: No MC
Issue 42-44: MC...in space!

So...yeah, pretty much all MC all the time (or at least 39 of the 44). What I think causes the mistaken impression there wasn't as much as there was is due to the fact that some issues had multiple storylines, so those particular storylines might not have had any MC but other stories going on the same issue did. The space station plot is the best example: that one built up as a "B-plot" in the background of several issues, introducing the characters with no MC, until it switched to the A-plot and the MC was there.
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Re: Omega Unit Villians: FallenStar - Posts & Discussion

Postby Adon » February 11th, 2012, 5:44 am

Heya! Just wanted to reiterate my beginning point that I am aware I'm fairly atypical of MCcomix readers. While I know that MCed heroines is the focus of the site, for me both parts are important -- MC and heroine. If the heroine doesn't really do anything heroic, they are just a victim in a skimpy costume, as far as I'm concerned. To me, it makes the MC portion more poignant when we KNOW that this is a powerful and capable person brought under someone's thrall, as opposed to being told. That said, I will concede that in a visual medium, there is only so much panel space and so much time to establish things. That said, and this isn't really specific to Firstborn, one thing I can think of that can be trimmed from a lot of stories is repetition. What I mean is that in stories where there is serial enslavement, to me it seems like it's just padding things when the same scene is done with very little variation. After the first one the reader knows how the process works, they don't need to see the whole thing in detail over and over unless there is something different about it. I'm not saying to cut those out altogether, but they can definitely be shortened.

Sorry again, mostly I'm just kind of venting and somehow this subforum became the place I'm doing it. I guess the thing is that for me, part of the appeal of MC stories is the struggle, whoever wins. When there's no struggle, my interest tends to wane.
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Re: Omega Unit Villians: FallenStar - Posts & Discussion

Postby FirstBorn » February 11th, 2012, 6:43 am

Tecknophyle wrote:So...yeah, pretty much all MC all the time (or at least 39 of the 44). What I think causes the mistaken impression there wasn't as much as there was is due to the fact that some issues had multiple storylines, so those particular storylines might not have had any MC but other stories going on the same issue did. The space station plot is the best example: that one built up as a "B-plot" in the background of several issues, introducing the characters with no MC, until it switched to the A-plot and the MC was there.


-- Huh... Well done Tecknophyle, I stand corrected. That was a very fast review of a very long series. Well done. And, by the by, well worth the time for anyone who has not already seen it over @ HipComix.

Adon wrote: That said, and this isn't really specific to Firstborn, one thing I can think of that can be trimmed from a lot of stories is repetition. What I mean is that in stories where there is serial enslavement, to me it seems like it's just padding things when the same scene is done with very little variation. After the first one the reader knows how the process works, they don't need to see the whole thing in detail over and over unless there is something different about it. I'm not saying to cut those out altogether, but they can definitely be shortened.


-- Hmm... I can certainly see your point there. That was one thing that Platinum Earth was very good at doing- throwing a lot of variation in the method of MC during the story. ((Don't want you to think I wasn't a fan)) Thing is, I'd be willing to bet that for some readers the repeated and serial enslavement might be what keeps them coming back.

I suppose the point would be to try and satisfy as many people as possible with out stories. Throw in a bit more variation and resistance but keep enough of the repetition as well. That's why they call it "art"- everyone see's something different and values it for different reasons. Just because you're a self-admitted "atypical reader" here @ McComix doesn't mean we can't nor shouldn't take your concerns into consideration within our work. For every student who raises a hand in class, 10 more and thinking the same thing but aren't willing to ask.

Adon wrote:Sorry again, mostly I'm just kind of venting and somehow this subforum became the place I'm doing it. I guess the thing is that for me, part of the appeal of MC stories is the struggle, whoever wins. When there's no struggle, my interest tends to wane.


-- No worries, mate. And I'm hearing you loud and clear. It may be too late to help DayStar, but its certainly some constructive criticism I'll keep in mind in the future.
~
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Re: Omega Unit Villians: FallenStar - Posts & Discussion

Postby Hector2 » February 12th, 2012, 11:17 pm

Hi there!
I have read the tale, but I feel more motivated to talk about the last posts that to resume it here! It seems that the old discussion has resurfaced: The heroines give up so easily that they don’t seem heroic at all.

In this particular case, DayStar was obligated to drink something that corrupted her soul. Once he drank, the thirst take control of her. After that, it was easy to corrupt her. Given she is all powerful, but affected by magic (like Superman!) this seems justified to me. It was a legitimate trap, the demon first took her friend Sharon, she had the strange tiara… at least to me, she didn’t give up so easily…
About Adon’s comment:

I (and a lot of people) share his opinion. There was a long standing discussion in a post that deal with this problem: Why supposedly capable heroines fall into traps again and again? Obviously, the writers addressed those discussions by making the heroines doing capable things again, hilariously summed up by a comment from Macrolass at the Hallowen Havoc forum:

“But isn't Miss Metrobay actually DOING something effective in a fight one of the signs of the oncoming apocalpse?”


Now, I think the repetition and the “filler” sense that comes with it is something inevitable in this site. This site is about Mind Control. I think my favorite artists are those that manage to cram scenes of mind control in their comics, you know, the sexy stuff. It seems to me that any scene that doesn’t present MC is cheating me, -even if it’s an introductory, really necessary scene for the narrative.
And just to finish this discussion, I would like to point that even here at MC comix (a site that tends to display MC over other things) there are imaginative intents to shake the status quo: I loved the story of Snowflake and Jade when they chased some crooks like Batman in The Platinum Earth # 27. Also, the heroines now show more skill and aren’t trapped so easily.

I think there is a little exaggeration with Snowflake: I know she’s a fan favorite (well, she’s one of my favorites) but there has been a lot of tales about her characterization, and I think some other heroines deserve the spotlight too.

But maybe the most imaginative change could be seen in “Prized Displays” part seven: Heroine Fluffy secret identity, Clarissa, talks about “The cycle”:

“[The heroines] after we’re captured or controlled in some way, by sheer dumb luck we escape our “imprisonment”, Rarely, if ever, do we manage to save ourselves when we get into trouble, we all have to act like a real family and support each other after every capture, brainwash and humiliation, we test and push one another to become better, stronger, telling ourselves that enough training and experience will keep us safe during the next mission. Then it’s back to fighting villains again. And then once again get mind controlled all over again, no matter how much we train and prepare and promptly turned into playthings for the baddies. Somehow, we always end up free, after that, the cycle repeats itself, over and over.

And in Chain Reaction issue #2, Clarissa actually gives up her superheroic identity of Fluffy. I cannot wait to see how that story will go, but I think it’s gone about metafiction, a character getting to know why his universe works like it works. In that issue, she says:

“Baddies leave you alone if you stop hunting them”

I think this talks about the creativity of this site.

And about your tale? I loved Fallen Star's sarcasm: A coffin? Seriously?
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Re: Omega Unit Villians: FallenStar - Posts & Discussion

Postby FirstBorn » February 13th, 2012, 2:19 pm

Hector2 wrote:And about your tale? I loved Fallen Star's sarcasm: A coffin? Seriously?
Hector.


-- Thanks Hector. Glad you liked that tidbit. As for the rest... all I can say is "well put, sir."
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Re: Omega Unit Villians: FallenStar - Posts & Discussion

Postby sohta123 » February 14th, 2012, 9:51 pm

I have to say I loved what you did with Daystar in this episode!
You took an archetype heroine and threw her characterization aside to bring more depth and not the status quo.
I think the misnomer was that she was supposed to remain a heroine when your intention was in fact to show how one of the villains of your writing was born.

I hope she stays this way personally. I also hope she's deceptive now with her reputation and very cunning and powerful.

As for the heroines doing heroic things, I think some of that is understood or implied and as you say there's only so much you can cram in. I don't need to see a lot of that (but it's ok). What I want to see is creativity and character development and then the change in that character.

Mindless enslavement is ok and fun overall but what I like best is to see someone change and do things they wouldn't normally do. Whether it's going from hetro to lesbian or vice-versa or goody goody to absolute evil and even from healthy sexually active to sexless ( =both mentally & physically), it's the change in the nature that is interesting and a turn-on to me. Sometimes even the loss of identity is what I think is really hot - be it a mask or the featureless face type, it's the loss of who they were that's understood.

Keep up the great work. Can't wait to see more villains created and heroines enslaved. :D
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Re: Omega Unit Villians: FallenStar - Posts & Discussion

Postby FirstBorn » February 15th, 2012, 11:08 pm

sohta123 wrote:I have to say I loved what you did with Daystar in this episode!
You took an archetype heroine and threw her characterization aside to bring more depth and not the status quo.
I think the misnomer was that she was supposed to remain a heroine when your intention was in fact to show how one of the villains of your writing was born.


-- Thanks! And yes, that was the intention. And I hope you enjoy what I have planned for the Fallen DayStar as well... <evil grin>

sohta123 wrote:Mindless enslavement is ok and fun overall but what I like best is to see someone change and do things they wouldn't normally do. Whether it's going from hetro to lesbian or vice-versa or goody goody to absolute evil and even from healthy sexually active to sexless ( =both mentally & physically), it's the change in the nature that is interesting and a turn-on to me. Sometimes even the loss of identity is what I think is really hot - be it a mask or the featureless face type, it's the loss of who they were that's understood.

Keep up the great work. Can't wait to see more villains created and heroines enslaved. :D


-- I have to say I second that. The mindless robotic thing isn't really my schtick either although it still touches enough buttons to keep my interest. I share your interest in seeing the fundamental change in character (fall from grace / corruption to evil) rather than a simple "loss of self/identity".

Thus, I will likely not be producing a lot of stories involving the Greybot style storyline- but I have my own aspect that's close enough to that in the form of the infestation from the Haywire story. I just hope I last long enough around here to tell all the stories I have floating in my head... which of course will take a very long time. ;)

I hope you all enjoy the ride.
~
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Re: Omega Unit Villians: FallenStar - Posts & Discussion

Postby FirstBorn » March 4th, 2012, 4:06 pm

Hello again everyone! After a mild delay due to technical difficulties I am proud to present Chapter 3 of the FallenStar storyline.

The full story is available here: http://www.mccomix.com/members/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=36768

Synopsis:
DayStar has awoken, her corrupted soul once again in possession of her physical body. But the transition into the long night is not going to be easy for our fledgling villain- first she has to crawl out from beneath the shadow of her own would-be-master. Does she have the power to defy the architect of her own fall from grace? Find out in this month's installment of the Omega Unit: FallenStar saga!

Preview for the 4th and final chapter of the FallenStar origin story has been posted in the covers gallery here: http://www.mccomix.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=44529

Enjoy! And feel free to comment!
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Re: Omega Unit Villians: FallenStar - Posts & Discussion

Postby GARFIELD » March 4th, 2012, 4:25 pm

i love your story, am just sad that it is gonna stop at number four....
the art and detail is very very nice.... can't wait to see your next story
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Re: Omega Unit Villians: FallenStar - Posts & Discussion

Postby kakyo001 » March 4th, 2012, 4:53 pm

wwweeeelllllllll... at least they're together now and Shannon's feelings won't be rejected by an clueless heroine anymore... (if she's able to feel anything but utter devotion to her new mistress anyway :roll: )

that's something positive... right ? :P
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Re: Omega Unit Villians: FallenStar - Posts & Discussion

Postby FirstBorn » March 12th, 2012, 4:52 pm

kakyo001 wrote:wwweeeelllllllll... at least they're together now and Shannon's feelings won't be rejected by an clueless heroine anymore... (if she's able to feel anything but utter devotion to her new mistress anyway :roll: )

that's something positive... right ? :P


-- I always love finding the silver lining in the utter corruption of a soul. ;) Just remember- I'm not quite done with the two of them yet- one more chapter to go!


GARFIELD wrote:i love your story, am just sad that it is gonna stop at number four....
the art and detail is very very nice.... can't wait to see your next story


Thanks Garfield! I'll have the first chapter of Queen's Reign up on the 20th and then it will pick up in my "usual slot" after the FallenStar Saga has completed.

I hope you continue to enjoy my work. The comments go a long way to keeping us artists interested/fueled for more!
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Re: Omega Unit Villians: FallenStar - Posts & Discussion

Postby Hector2 » March 12th, 2012, 11:51 pm

Hey, I really felt ambivalent about this: I love seeing the good guys win, so seeing the beginning of a villain – and a truly frightening villain, that is! – really… saddens me.

But your story is good! Very good! I an anxious to see next issue

Keep up the good work!
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Re: Omega Unit Villians: FallenStar - Posts & Discussion

Postby FirstBorn » March 13th, 2012, 6:17 am

Hector2 wrote:Hey, I really felt ambivalent about this: I love seeing the good guys win, so seeing the beginning of a villain – and a truly frightening villain, that is! – really… saddens me.

But your story is good! Very good! I an anxious to see next issue

Keep up the good work!


I'm glad you like the story so far. But there's no need to fret at the birth of a new villain. We can't have good stories without good antagonists.

But never fear, as she said herself in her monologue, FallenStar isn't going to be your run of the mill villain. She is theoretically extremely powerful but I don't intend to use her like a sledgehammer in my stories. Think of her as an anti-villain in the same way that a certain dark knight is an anti-hero.

I can't really say more than that w/o giving spoilers for stories a long time coming but that's the roll I have in mind for her. Well... that- and whenever I need a source for a nice scary vampire. ;)
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Re: Omega Unit Villians: FallenStar - Posts & Discussion

Postby FirstBorn » March 30th, 2012, 10:19 pm

Hello again everyone! I am proud to present the fourth and final chapter of the FallenStar origin story.

The full story is available here: http://www.mccomix.com/members/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=38024

Synopsis:
DayStar has placed the soul-gem upon the head of her betrayer, friend, and paramour. Now its just a matter of waiting for the demonic entity within to do his dirty work. In the meantime DayStar needs to put enough distance between herself and her former friends to remain undetected- not to mention begin her plans for carving out her own territory somewhere in the world. How will this origin story wrap up? Find out in the fourth and final installment of Omega Unit: FallenStar!


I plan to use FallenStar here as a non-traditional villain in subsequent Omega Unit story-lines- but obviously those will be a while in coming. For the foreseeable future I will be concentrating on the "Queen's Reign" storyline. Don't worry though- I'll be back to the O.U. soon enough.

Stay tuned! And of course comments, constructive criticism is welcome/encouraged! I hope you enjoyed the ride as much as I enjoyed the drive. ;)
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